From Holy War to Hybrid War: What the Baltic Crusades Teach Us Today

In the beginning of this episode of “At the Boundary”, host Jim Cardoso shares some highlights of the first ever GNSI International Security Experience Strategy Competition. This includes a short interview with a member of the winning team, UCF’s Canon Wesley, about the experience. This competition is the first of its kind at USF, and is a unique learning opportunity of undergraduate students interested in the national security field.  

Then for the main interview, GNSI’s Tad Schnaufer, PhD, is joined by Gregory Leighton, author of “Ideology and Holy Landscape in the Baltic Crusades” to explore why medieval history still shapes today’s global security landscape.

What began as a discussion of the Baltic Crusades quickly reveals deeper insights into how ideology, narrative, and identity influence modern conflicts, including NATO strategy, Russia’s worldview, and the war in Ukraine.

Links from the Episode:

• GNSI Announces Student Cohort for DC Experience

• Tad and Guido’s article

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At the Boundary  from the Global and National Security Institute at the University of South Florida,  features global and national security issues we’ve found to be insightful, intriguing, fascinating, maybe controversial, but overall just worth talking about.

A "boundary" is a place, either literal or figurative, where two forces exist in close proximity to each other. Sometimes that boundary is in a state of harmony. More often than not, that boundary has a bit of chaos baked in. The Global and National Security Institute will live on the boundary of security policy and technology and that's where this podcast will focus.

The mission of GNSI is to provide actionable solutions to 21st-century security challenges for decision-makers at the local, state, national and global levels. We hope you enjoy At the Boundary.

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Transcript

SPEAKERS

Jim Cardoso, Canon Wesley, Greg Leighton, Tad Schnaufer, Glenn Beckmann

Jim Cardoso  00:00

Jim. Hello everyone. Welcome to this week's episode of at the boundary, the podcast from the global and national security Institute at the University of South Florida. I'm Jim Cardoso, Senior Director for GNSI, and your host for at the boundary. Today on the podcast, we're going to speak with author Gregory Layton about his book ideology and holy landscapes in the Baltic crusades. This book examines how the military orders and the ideology of the crusade ushered in a new era in the medieval Baltic region. First, however, we want to talk for a few minutes about last week's GNSI international security experience, four days of speakers, panels, discussions, connections and mentoring, capped off by the USF undergraduate strategy competition on Thursday and Friday. Let me give some highlights from that first ever one of a kind event. We had a completely full bracket for the competition, 15 universities and 17 teams from across the United States and Poland responded to the call, including Georgetown, Texas, A and M, North Carolina and Arizona state, the state of Florida was well represented by University of Central Florida, Embry Riddle, the University of Tampa and, of course, our own USF Bulls. In the competition, we posed a specific global scenario for the teams to analyze and make recommendations on strategy going forward. In this case, the scenario was NATO's plans for the Arctic teams. Had to prepare a strategy for this scenario, considering all aspects of national power, write policy memos and make presentations to a panel of judges comprised of seasoned national security practitioners and thinkers. This is a common exercise for current practitioners and for postgraduate researchers, but not so much for undergrads. We saw it as a great opportunity to create another beyond the classroom experience for students as they chart their career pathways towards being the next generation of national security leaders. Not only is this a unique exercise at the undergraduate level, but as I mentioned earlier, this was the first time we've ever hosted an event of this type. Even so, we set high expectation for the competition, which were still wonderfully exceeded. After two rounds, we were left with a Final Four of Georgetown, Arizona State, UCF and USF. In the end, our friendly i Four rivals, the UCF Knights, edged out Arizona State to become the first name etched into the championship trophy. Gnsii. Glenn Beckman caught up with UCF team member cannon wisely for his reactions after the award ceremony. You I

Glenn Beckmann  03:04

cannon congratulations on winning the first championship here at USF. Does it feel a little extra special?

Canon Wesley  03:10

It feels incredible. I won't lie to you. I'd love to tell you that I'm incredibly humbled. I am incredibly humbled, but this feels extend outstanding. How confident

Speaker 1  03:19

were you guys coming into this,

Canon Wesley  03:22

I would love to tell you that we came into this like, oh my gosh, we're gonna win. Of course, we were all saying it, and we all were trying to hype ourselves up. And I don't wanna say pretend, but act as if we were gonna win it. But I would be lying to you if I don't say there was some doubt there. There were some strong teams that were here. Genius, I have a strong program, USF. They were very impressive. Georgetown, I heard we didn't get to go up to get them personally. I heard they were very impressive. Arizona State University, who we went up against in the finals. They had points in their plan that anything, any strategy, was actually decided. I think you would need to add those as well as ours. Their ideas on private partnership, they were outstanding. We didn't consider that, that they were they were incredible.

Glenn Beckmann  04:02

How did you put your team together? Have Did you guys know each other? Do you study together? Or did was this an incident where you kind of brought in different people for different fields of expertise? So it

Canon Wesley  04:14

reminds me of the Breakfast Club a little bit, where we actually never met before, or some of us met each other. I personally hadn't many of them, and they had come but we, we all came to know each other through the competition and preparing. I think we got advanced on this competition two, three months out, we ran a couple practice sessions. Yeah, it was incredible. But yeah, we all met each other in this we've become really good friends. Rebecca, who is one of our speakers. She will we both got elected to the security and intelligence club at USF. Go cosi. Congratulations. She will be my vice president next year, and I was lucky enough to be voted president. So So, speaking

Glenn Beckmann  04:54

of throwing things together, you didn't learn about the topic the scenario until just. Hours before you had to start preparing. What did you think when you learned it was NATO strategic

Canon Wesley  05:04

plans in the Arctic? I was thinking, oh my gosh, that guy from William and Mary guessed it correct. No, we were surprised to see that that was the subject. I would love to tell you that was one of the ones on our idea. But we went into it, we thought it was gonna be Iran. We were convinced that it was gonna be something to do with the Middle East, something to do with the Middle East, something to do with Iran, and when we saw Arctic, which is about as far away as you could get from that, we were shocked. We spent the next couple of hours at the event talking with the staff all over the place. There were, are the panelists, everybody? I just real quick, I would just love to say We are Team USF, and we did win this competition in it, but it wasn't the five of us that won this. It was it was us emailing our professors at UCF, talking to the panelists around here. I would love to say that this strategy was put together by the five of us alone, but if I'm being completely honest with you, it was the conversations we had with the judges, the panelists, our professors at home, the phone calls, we made, everything that actually pulled this strategy together. So I think the strategy is more representative of the entire community of young students, rather than simply USF alone.

Glenn Beckmann  06:12

That's fantastic. Which, which is actually my last question for you. This competition gave you access to experts from around the world in a wide variety of different industries and fields and specialties. How does it feel to have access this intimate access to people like that, and be able to just sit and have a conversation

Canon Wesley  06:32

with them? That doesn't happen in this field. National security is one of those fields and intelligence that you just don't get to interact with those officials until you become one of them. So to have the opportunity to see those presentations and the and the ability to interact with those individuals is incredible. Our strategy could not have been built without the two days of conference before this presentation, we were lucky enough to be able to come and watch the entire conference and the questions, the Q and A's, the ideas are brought up during that actually ended up becoming some of the central tenants for our strategy. I didn't know what gray zone conflict was before this conference, and it's one of the biggest differentiators that we had in our presentation.

Glenn Beckmann  07:15

That's awesome. Congratulations, against the Great job, even, even if it was USF coming to our turf. Hey, Go Knights. Charge on. Thanks canon. Thank you. Congratulations.

Jim Cardoso  07:30

The awards presentation capped off a fantastic week here at USF. GNSI hosted the intelligence and Technology Expo on Tuesday, in partnership with King's College of London, and the Intelligence and National Security journal on Wednesday, the future strategist program put on their own conference, shadows and circuits. We also hosted the CIA for a series of on campus recruitment and informational sessions for students and faculty throughout the week, and we collaborated with the USF Center for Career and Professional Development, as well as the USF Office of National scholars to host a career fair for USF students. We also made another important announcement last week, naming the six USF students selected to go to the DC experience next month. Congratulations to doctavius, Ellis, Anna, lajimi, Savannah, Lewis, Calvin Pham, Rachel Stanton and Santiago Zambrano. It's time now, however, to explore backward into history as we turn to our featured interview today. Gregory Layton is an author and researcher specializing in the development of the ideology of crusading, whose most recent book, ideology and holy landscape in the Baltic crusades is the subject of this interview with GNSI strategy and research manager, Dr tad schnaufer. Let's listen in to their conversation.

Tad Schnaufer  08:59

Well, Greg, welcome to the at the boundary podcast.

Greg Leighton  09:03

Oh, it's great to be here Ted.

Tad Schnaufer  09:04

So why don't you get us started on what you're working on right now, and we'll tie that into your book and then some of the contemporary issues we're dealing with today.

Greg Leighton  09:13

No, no problem. So right now, my my job is pretty multifaceted, in addition to my research activities on the medieval history of the Baltic Sea region and the Crusades, I also am responsible for the organization and management of the research center for post Teutonic Order heritage at the mahlborg Castle Museum. So that involves developing new projects, in addition to sort of trying to collect and organize and ultimately make available a very rich and diverse and extensive body of materials related to not just the history of the Teutonic Knights, which we can talk about in a little. Bit, but also the built material heritage of the Southern Baltic and Eastern Baltic region, which includes castles like the one I work in in malbark, but also churches, pound fortification so like city walls, things like this. And really, my job is to locate, organize, and sort of try to publish online the extensive amounts of like historical documentation, but also like architectural, kind of heritage conservation documents related to all that. So it's a really interesting job. I never know what I'm going to

Tad Schnaufer  10:43

get in a given day. Well, it's fascinating. I'm sure you have a lot of those great moments when you find something in an archive, or something like that, you're like, wow, I've been looking for this for literally years. What you know, as we look at malburg Castle, what? What's its history? I know, obviously it's one of the largest castles in Europe. Can you give us a little bit of background on that?

Greg Leighton  11:03

Yeah, so malborg Castle was built, probably at the end of the 13th century. The first record of the town of Malbork in German was marienborg, which is castle of the Virgin Mary comes from 1276, so the castle was built just like, really, any other Castle you would have had in this area during the time of the conquest and conversion of this region. What was it was constructed of wood and earth. If you, if your listeners might be interested in medieval European history, could think of these as a form of Mott and Bailey's style of Castle, so a wooden fortification on top of like a man made Hill, if you will. And Malbork started like that. It was nothing grandiose like it is now largest, I believe, the largest castle in Europe, the largest brick castle in the world. But its origins, like I said, are quite small. Only in the early 14th century did the castle become the seat of the grand masters of the Teutonic Knights. So the Teutonic Knights were something like a German version of the Knights Templar. They're responsible for initially administering medical care to German pilgrims in the Holy Land, but quickly were militarized in the late 12th century and were responsible for the defense of the holy places and pilgrims in the Holy Land. Could make a long story short, after the loss of the Christian territories in the Latin east. In 1291, the Teutonic Order briefly stayed in Venice. The Grand Masters once it went to Venice. And then in 1309, they came here to the southern Baltic. We would call it Northeastern Poland today, but in that time, it was known as Prussia, and they set up their headquarters here, and they would stay in Malbork from 13 or nine until the castle was eventually sold in 1457 to the armies of the King of Poland. In the context of kind of what's known as a 13 years war, which is when, essentially, the towns around this area realized, well, we're ruled by these military, monastic knights, and there's no kind of enemies of Christianity for them to fight here anymore, but they're still charging us a lot of taxes, and we have to give them a lot of our revenues. So why are they here? So that's sparked the kind of internal conflicts that ultimately resulted in the Grand Masters leaving Malbork castle. It wasn't taken it was a diplomatic sort of negotiation, and going to Kaliningrad, back in those days, was Trinity spare. So, yeah, the castle was, for 150 odd years, the main capital of this international military order, and was expanded and built over

Tad Schnaufer  14:15

the centuries. What's gonna be pretty fascinating to work there, for sure, and actually, and you live right there pretty much as well. So that's that's very historic, yes, so who exactly is the sponsor of your project? Is it like a nonprofit, or is it the Polish government itself?

Greg Leighton  14:27

So the the research center that I work in was originally funded by a European economic agency grant, in partnership with some government institutions in Norway, Iceland, Norway and Liechtenstein, I think they funded the kind of rebuilding of the the part of the castle where I work. My my, my office is in one of the historic buildings of the castle, but the research center is a full on you. Um department in the castle, just like we have a history department in our archeology department. The museum itself is a national museum, so it's kind of funded by the Polish government, essentially. And we apply for different grants, like we're in the process of finding different grants to apply for to start new research projects. But it's just like any other department in the in the museum. So, you know, Oh, that's interesting.

Tad Schnaufer  15:21

Yeah. I mean, we work with, we're partnering with a number of Polish universities, and we see that they have a very deep history, or deep interest in developing their history, you know, being able to get it out there and recording that. So I imagine this project falls into that piece. So why don't we turn over to your book and take a look at some of the investigation and research you've done for that? Obviously, it was your district. Was your dissertation first, and then it became a book. As you looked at the holy landscape of the Baltic region, as you noted, you know, when people think crusades, or typically think about the Levant or, you know, Jerusalem, or the, you know, the modern day Middle East, but there was a different type of crusade in the Baltic. Could you give us a little breakdown of that?

Greg Leighton  16:03

Yeah, sure, yeah. What fascinated me about the the idea, I guess you could say, of a sacral landscape, or holy landscape in the Baltic, was precisely what, what you pointed out that's, there was no Jerusalem here, and there was no kind of holy place to defend, but you had the transplant of this idea of the crusade, which is, in my opinion, and I think in most main mainstream crusade scholarship, based on the connection between holy places and the need for military defense. So how did I come into contact with the idea for my first book? It was actually sparked by the publication of the English translation of a medieval Chronicle for the Teutonic Knights in the area where I work now, and what really caught me was the way that the chroniclers and the Teutonic Order wrote about their conquest in Prussia using a lot of language taken from pretty much, like, two sets of historical sources. Yeah, we could say, like the first one, of course, being the Bible, kind of framing events within biblical history, but also a unique kind of awareness of the history of the crusade movement to the Holy Land itself. So I was really intrigued by the question of, what did the these these chroniclers, think about the place where they were living and writing, and did they have any understanding, or did they make a deliberate attempt to kind of, in some ways, recreate a new holy land that maybe was closer to them geographically, and that was really brought home when I made My first visit to Northeastern Poland in the year 2013 I came to malborg for the first time, and I was, I was pretty intrigued by that question, and wanted

Tad Schnaufer  18:10

to explore it further. What's because, as you mentioned, the Teutonic Order, right? They have, you have the standard crusade people think about in, you know, modern day Israel, that area, the Levant that gets pretty much wiped out in the late 13th century. And then they're looking for new headquarters. They go to Venice, and then they end up in malburg. So from from there, then they start focusing on, at the time, the pagan Lithuanians and that, that northern Baltic region. So your overall research is saying that, in a sense, it carried a lot of those traditions from the first crusades, brought them up there, and almost kind of like recreated a purpose for themselves.

Greg Leighton  18:52

The kind of transference of ideas in the late 13th century from from the holy land to the Baltic by the Teutonic Knights can be traced, really, in its historical texts. So Chronicles, mostly, but also you have some letters and you have, like every military monastic order, such as the Templars, the Teutonic Knights, had a rule which kind of sets them up as a corporation, yeah, kind of group of standards or rules or codes that they that they operated by. And part of this rule is called the PROLOG, which is the key events in the early history of the Knights, such as their foundation in the Holy Land, their militarization, kind of early donors and these things kind of got transferred over when the grand masters came to Prussia. Even though they weren't in the Holy Land, it had been lost in 1291, they still, you know, through the performance of, for example, like monastic vows every day and group reading things like this. But also just kind of, you know, I. They had committed this rule, really, to memory, and it was part of who they were as an institution, not just individuals. So the idea of bringing that legacy in the Holy Land to a totally new place was not, was not alien to them at all. And in fact, after the loss of the holy land in the late 13th century, you had a general criticism of the military orders, and Teutonic Order being one of them. Well, these institutions were founded to protect the holy places, and they lost. So what are they going to do? Why do we need them? Why do they why did they grow to become so influential and, of course, wealthy? And I think with the Teutonic Knights, you can see a kind of positive outcome of this criticism. Whereas, you know, almost everybody knows the history of the Knights Templar and being, you know, disbanded and put on trial and suppressed, the Teutonic Order, really succeeded in coming to the Baltic area and reinventing themselves, as you said, they used specific language to describe their enemies, and this was a successful sort of marketing aspect of their their their legacy here that people really supported, and especially, you know, rulers and princes in the territories of the Holy Roman Empire, but also as far afield as England and Italy and Spain, France. They they found, they found here something that they could continue. You know, they, they didn't have the the chance to go on a crusade to the Holy Land. They could come to Lithuania and kind of carry out their vow to go on a crusade, but also participate in some extensive kind of chivalric, you know, activities. And, yeah, the Teutonic Knights are kind of a mirror of the Knights Templar but also a kind of, if you were to ask yourself, what would happen if the Templars kind of had a successful marketing campaign, what would have happened to them? I would say that you can see in the Teutonic Knights, you know that that possibility counterfactual thinking, I guess you could say, right?

Tad Schnaufer  22:24

So they're able to, in a sense, reinvent themselves, because they're trying to keep the donors on, like you said, it's almost like a company. So they're trying to, okay, so we need a new market. We need a new, in a sense, a new place to spread our idea. So it's a Catholic based organ organization, and so they're looking to expand in the Baltic, which really the last pagan area in Europe at the time, because otherwise it's either pretty much Catholicism or orthodox. So so they end up in the Prussia to be able to expand that into the Baltic. How does that? How does that work? How do they create that narrative? Because we see in modern day conflicts, narratives very important. Why are you fighting this? What is the purpose? What's the objective, goals? So how did they, how did they work that out in the Baltic, where, again, you don't have these sacred places, you don't have, you know, Jerusalem, or these, these things that from the Bible, you have just pretty much an open landscape of pagans.

Greg Leighton  23:17

It's a great question, because you really have to look at the pre history of this region, before the Teutonic Knights came here in the 13th century, you had conflicts between local rulers, at least like in when we talk about the Baltic, we had the southern Baltic, so like Northeastern Poland, and then you have The modern day Baltic states of Latvia, Estonia and Lithuania. There's some differences there in terms of their pre history context with Christianity, but for the for the sake of the podcast, how the Teutonic Order set themselves up here, with this narrative, was you had about two centuries, maybe three centuries, maybe between two and three centuries of contact between Christian missionaries from Poland and Central Europe trying to proselytize or convert the non Christian people here, and that resulted in some mostly unsuccessful missionary efforts. Already in the 11th century, you had some contests, or some some conflicts with Boleslav, Kroeber, Boleslav, the brave first King of Poland, with the with the Prussians, people who lived in this kind of area of northeastern Poland, and this Kaliningrad exclave, you could say. And the 12th century, this continued with local rulers, Piast rulers, trying to expand their territories in the name of conversion of these pagans. But it's really in the 13th century. Tree with local ruler Conrad of mazobia. He kind of was interested to expand, of course, his if you read the sources, if you read his letters, he says he's protecting his borders from pagan raids, right? But of course, one of the big problems we have, and if you want to go to narrative, is that we don't have any written sources from the Prussians, so we don't know if maybe they were protecting their borders. We don't know what was going on from their perspective. But Conrad was trying to protect his borders from the Prussians. He sponsors missionary work of Cistercians to go into Prussia and try to convert these people. The first bishop of Prussia named Christian founds, a local military order, kind of like the Templars, but very small, known as the Knights of Dobrin, who are named after settlements in central Poland dobzhan. They were not successful in quelling the Prussian raids and kind of bringing the Prussians under the yoke of Christianity. So Conrad invited the or not invited. He asked the Teutonic Knights to come help him to protect his borders. So that's how they arrived here, in the 1230s and this kind of is where they were able to add this invitation in the into their we could almost call it a historic, historiographical tradition. You know, they were founded in the Holy Land, but then this noble, Duke Conrad, asked them for help, because he heard of how grand and illustrious they were at fighting the enemies of Christianity. So of course, they were the best fit for this job here. So in a long story, a long story short, that's how they arrived here. We know that there was some kind of invitation. We have original charters from the 13th century referring to this invitation. And that's how they came here.

Tad Schnaufer  27:00

That's a very interesting and then, obviously they did a number. You know, your book has some great maps denoting the different northern crusades as they went into northern Livonia and modern day Baltic states. And you know, worked to again, convert the pagan groups there. But how was the interaction between the Teutonic, again, a Catholic order in the Orthodox as well. So you have the Orthodox coming up from the south, and did they have any interaction in this region, or was that something that came later

Greg Leighton  27:28

in history? Yeah, of course. So before the Teutonic Order came to

Greg Leighton  27:36

Livonia, so that present day Baltic States they they can say that they arrived in 1236 1237 there was some kind of contact between early Catholic missionaries in Livonia, of course, and the Orthodox Church. Our best source for these early contacts between Catholicism and Orthodoxy in Livonia, in eastern Baltic, his 13th century chronicle of Henry of Livonia. He was a local priest there. And he writes a little bit, of course, critical of the Orthodox that you know. I think I believe what he says is the Orthodox missionaries and Orthodox rulers were more happy to take tribute than to actually try and convert people. But the Catholic missionaries were really interested in spreading the word of you know, spreading the word of God and the true Christian faith. Yeah. So these contacts between the missionaries, who primarily came from Germany, modern day Germany and the Orthodox were not very cooperative, right with the Teutonic Knights. You have some contacts with Orthodox, primarily in the 14th century and 15th century. And to put it, to put it mildly, they were not, not very good. I don't think there were. There weren't many serious military interactions. But of course, like you can even still see today, if you look at the Estonian town of Narva, it's right across the Narva river from Ivana. You Ivana growth. So this is like this Russian Christian border, or Latin or Latin Orthodox and Catholic border existed already in the Middle Ages. There was some kind of military engagements in the 15th century and 16th century, but a lot of the main sort of interactions took place in the realm of like diplomacy. So you had kind of this kind of diplomatic strategy of the Teutonic Knights to lump the Orthodox rulers in with the Catholic. King of Poland, who in the Teutonic port of diplomacy, was always portrayed as like a false Christian. He didn't really intend to be a Christian, and he allied himself with the pagans and Orthodox rulers who were called schismatics. So there was some contact diplomatically, and,

Tad Schnaufer  30:22

yeah, yeah. Well, and to tie that kind of together, as you talked about the military piece, obviously one of the big things that we see today as you look at the Russian narrative of, you know, their their history, and one thing that they constantly bring up, President Putin brings us up quite a bit, is the battle on the ice where the Teutonic Knights invaded novograd at the time in about 1242 and Prince Alexander Nevsky, which Putin has actually referenced multiple times in his work. So these Teutonic Knights did have that military engagement. Then, how did you know, from from your research, what does that look like?

Greg Leighton  30:57

Of course, like you said, this famous battle on the ice between Alexander Nevsky and the Teutonic Order in Livonia was quite, you know, quite a significant defeat for the order. And one of our best sources from this is a anonymous, middle, high German rhymed Chronicle. So like imagine a historical Chronicle, but written in rhyming couplets in poetic verse? Yeah, of course, like they talk about this clash between Nevsky and the Teutonic Knights as a kind of clash between good and evil, yeah, it was. It was the kind of evil nesky who managed to defeat these pious knights who, of course, are painted like martyrs in the text. The other significant engagement between Catholic and Orthodox forces that comes to my mind was about, let's see. 260 years later, there's a small battle called Lake smolino and the early 15, early 16th century. I think it was in 1501 15, 1502 it was a small Livonian army. So small army of Teutonic Knights against, against, I believe again, it was no garage or mosque Moscow except this time, the tables had kind of turned, and the small Livonian force won this victory, and it became like a huge feast day, like the local liturgical calendar in Riga, as a kind of miraculous victory over Ivan the third Vasilyevich, Ivan the Great this was a significant victory for Catholic forces. But I also seen some research that points to the fact that in Russian Chronicles from this period, it's seen as kind of just a small defeat for the for the Muscovites. It wasn't

Tad Schnaufer  32:57

a huge deal. And I'm sure you see the propaganda. You see this living in Poland quite a bit. And from the research we've done on the Russia, Ukraine conflict, the narrative and history piece of it plays such a huge role. Going back to your, you know, you noting about Narva. I mean, that's currently still a flashpoint between East and West. As you look at NATO forces there hybrid Russian hybrid operations in that town, the history of that. And then also the, again, the Russians, modern day Russian narratives about, particularly about their animosity, not animosity. They're seeing NATO as an adversary. I mean, some of that goes back to again, that narrative of what was going on during this time. So although it seems like hundreds of years in the past, and people might just want to be like, Well, why would, why would we spend time thinking about this, this clash between, you know, the Latin culture, or Catholic culture of the West, versus the Orthodox culture of the East still, is still playing out today. I mean, Putin and the Russian Government still very big on ensuring that part of being Russian is that Orthodox, right?

Greg Leighton  34:01

Yeah, exactly. And, I mean, I think, you know, at least in my my research and my kind of experience, and, of course, like the amount of things that I've heard about this topic, you know, I think that there's kind of two realities that are still very important in terms of the modern day situation, or even not even within the context of the Russian Ukrainian war, also just in general, maybe a broader NATO Russia perspective. I mean, we can go we can find these narratives about being a bulwark or kind of wall you in the Middle Ages. This is a common diplomatic strategy. It was in all kinds of correspondence. That's like, you know, from the from the Catholic perspective, that's countries like Poland, but also the Teutonic Knights territories in the eastern Baltic, you know, they were described as. A bulwark against pagans, but also against schismatics. You know, they were described as the German word is Bor Mauer, yeah, four wall against this kind of impending threat. I mean, of course, that that that strategy didn't only apply to their being on border with the Russians. I mean, this was common for countries in the southeast of Europe that were facing conflicts with the with the Ottomans in 15th and 16th century. I mean, this kind of rhetoric of being a bulwark against an enemy, or a wall against an enemy, was you can find the origins of this in kind of medieval I could, you could say diplomacy, right? But, you know, we also know from the archeological evidence, for example, that, of course, it wasn't just black and white. Yeah, there was actually quite a bit of cultural integration. There was, you know, cultural transfer between orthodoxy and Christianity, between paganism and Christianity that gets overlooked in the sources, which have a more polemical tone, yeah, like it's, you know, it's produced for these texts, in some cases, were produced for audiences that's, you know, had never set foot in the region, so they had to have a specific agenda of good Crusaders, Teutonic Knights, fighting against enemies of the faith. Teutonic territories being the bulwark against, you know, impending Russian invasion. Or, you know this, it's very nuanced. I mean, in fact, you have some letters from the 15th century and 16th century dealing with the fact that the Teutonic Knights were so focused on presenting themselves as this bulwark against against the Orthodox that they didn't want to be placed in in the on the Borderlands in southeastern Europe against the Turks, because they said, No, we have real threat here. We can't go. Of course, they wanted to stay here and continue to have revenues from their territories. They didn't want to leave where there could have been a real threat. So they had to rely on these narratives that's

Tad Schnaufer  37:17

very interesting, and they are obviously carry on today. I mean, through your research, you've traveled all through the region, and when you see it portrayed today, when you look at the, you know, Teutonic Knights, or you look at the Baltic crusades, how does it, how is it portrayed today in Poland or the Baltic States, or, you know, some of the other places that you've worked, lived and also done your Research?

Greg Leighton  37:40

Yeah. I mean, it's a great question. It definitely in Poland, where I spend most of my time. You know, the memory of the Teutonic Knights is still alive and well, not just in academic circles, but also in popular culture, most recently in malburg here, like about two years before I started, I think there was a exhibition called black cross, evil cross, the white and black legend of the Teutonic Knights. And it was about the kind of different depictions of the Teutonic Knights and the Baltic crusades in general, in German and Polish culture. Yeah, from the Middle Ages up to the present day. For a long time, there was a tendency in, I guess we can talk mostly about Polish national memory, to depict the Teutonic Knights as these evil occupiers, yeah, this kind of group of guys who came in and subjugated the kind of noble resistance, yeah, not even noble resistance. But you know, they were defeated by the noble Polish kings, yeah, like by Vladislav yagyavo at the Battle of Grunwald. Yeah, that memory is still very powerful in in, in Polish, in national memory today, like, I think every July, like July 15, for example, is the anniversary of the Battle of gruenbolt, right

Tad Schnaufer  39:12

where the poles in the Lithuanians beat the Teutonic night. Yeah, okay, yes.

Greg Leighton  39:16

This is, this is, like a turning point, really, in that kind of Polish national memory. It's 1000s of people go to this reenactment of the battle every year on the 15th of July. And I mean, working in a place like malborg That's so tied to the history of the Teutonic Knights, like to the losers. You know, even we have tied to the loser. Yeah, we have a huge commemoration of the subsequent seeds of the castle by yagyawa, which was unsuccessful, but it's still framed in this like it is a very kind of dramatic play, if you will, in front of the castle between this guy who plays the Grand Master and a guy who plays Yawa. And they have this kind of dialog between them, between each other. Of you know, what they each represent. You know, of course, jagwo is like this noble King and fighting for his people and the Teutonic Order, Grand Master Heinrich von plowing is seen kind of in a dark and, you know, greedy sort of light. I mean, these are still very popular depictions. So this the this process that started in the 13th century of conquest and colon you could say colonization, in some ways, is still alive and well that people remember this very well. It's in every Polish school book. It's everywhere. You know,

Tad Schnaufer  40:38

it's and again, I think in the United States, sometimes we forget how far history reaches back. You know, as a young country having our 250th year, it's just hard to think well, 600 years ago, we saw the Russians as a threat. Even today, I remember doing some interviews during my my dissertation on NATO and Russia. I was talking to an Estonian diplomat. I said, When did Estonia see Russia as a actual, you know, national security threat? Was it 2008 when they invaded Georgia? Was it 2014 when they annexed Crimea? And he said something of the nature, he goes, I think it was about the mid 13th century that we've always from then. That's when we started seeing Russia as a as a threat. And that really hasn't changed.

Greg Leighton  41:16

Yeah, I mean, and you know, it's, I think it's, I don't know it's beyond kind of my my my field of expertise or my specialization, but you know this from a territorial, geographical perspective, a place like the Baltic states, you look at historical processes like Christianization, they really have been the kind of meeting ground for a very, very long time.

Tad Schnaufer  41:44

Well, particularly when you look at again that east versus West divide, you know, you can think of, you know, Huntington's, you know, class of civilizations. This has been going on for hundreds of years right there. And the Baltic states have really been on the front lines of that, as well as Poland, again, being that bulk work of, you know, Catholicism and Christianity against these outside you know, from their perspective, outside forces, typically orthodox Russians, and we see Ukraine, in many ways, filling that role today. If you look at the dialog of European leaders today, they you know, if Ukraine falls, then we fall. You know, Ukraine has become the bulk of the West, despite not actually being a member, in a sense of the EU or NATO, these western organizations. So it's very interesting how this historical religious narrative has carried through the centuries, and really has moved, you know, in a sense, moved from country to country, and now it seems Ukrainians are

Greg Leighton  42:35

filling that role. Yeah. I mean, the, I think, yeah, it's, you can. There's actually some quite fascinating studies on the development of this topoi, you know, this, this depiction of one country or one group as like, you know, if they fall, we're all done for a long time. It was Poland, like I said, the territories of the Teutonic Knights in the present day Baltic states. And now, I'm sure you know, you can see this in the diplomacy, but also the kind of depiction of Ukraine, kind of being the last stand against the bulwark against the Russians. Yeah, right,

Tad Schnaufer  43:21

well, and we see the Baltic states and the news quite a bit as the Russians build up on their border and constantly seem to be under threat. And again, you can look back 600 years and you see these, how those lines were drawn, like, how did they end up becoming that through these Baltic crusades?

Greg Leighton  43:39

So I think in all of the Baltic states and also Poland and in some, some cases Germany too. Like the the medieval history, which is tied very strongly to the Crusades and and the expansion of Christianity eastward, not not to the Holy Land, of course, but to the Baltic states and Central Europe is very much a part of like national memory, national identity.

Tad Schnaufer  44:06

And you know, if you were going to tell a modern day, you know, tell our audience something from your research, from your book, that that probably would surprise them, and something that they probably should know despite not probably being in the normal public education here in United States, what would that be? What would be the big takeaway for our listeners and also our decision makers, as they look to engage with the region, our Baltic Allies, but also with the the Russians on the other side of the conflict?

Greg Leighton  44:35

Oh man, it's a really tough one.

Tad Schnaufer  44:39

Well, that's why we bring in the best.

Greg Leighton  44:42

I think, I think one of the most important things that I've discovered, one of the most important takeaways for me, is this, this year, not only the depth of this sort of divide, but also the the whole. Roles that can also be poked in this sort of, you know, us versus them, or Bulwark sort of narrative that you know when you read the sources. Of course, you're going to be presented with, with concepts and images that the authors of those sources want you to see. But I think to have a fully rounded, well rounded picture of this region and its history, including its context, which with the other side, if you were in times of peace, is quite interesting to try and keep in mind. Because, of course, there were peace treaties between the Teutonic Order and pagans. Peace treaties between the Teutonic Order and Russians, peace treaties between the Teutonic Order and its enemy, Kingdom of Poland. Yeah, there was peace and there was conflict. It wasn't just one or the other. There was exchange and there was exchange of people, of ideas, of, you know, of all kinds of heritage, and there was also, yeah, like, as we are seeing now, a lot of division and a lot of one sidedness, a lot of, yeah, there's a lot of exchanges of good and bad things. And I think the most important takeaway is to see this conflict is not something that started a couple of years ago. It has its roots in centuries of exchange, but also disagreements and conflicts.

Tad Schnaufer  46:31

That's a great point. I think again, that's something that can sometimes be lost. People cannot see past that. Again, all you have to do is look at the narratives that even leaders are using, whether it's European leaders, or, like I said, Russian leaders, going back. I mean, again, Alexander Nevsky is referenced quite often in the current Yeah, administration hit that three Yeah. I guess I believe

Greg Leighton  46:50

in the at the Orthodox Church, Alexander Nevsky

Tad Schnaufer  46:52

is the same, yes, yeah, exactly. So, I mean, you see these, this interaction, although hundreds of years ago, probably not on the front of most people's minds, but understanding that history allows you to be a better diplomat, allows you to be a better student, allows you to be a better even military officer, just understanding where are the where's the other side coming from, and how can we properly date them. Because this is what this history makes up their thought processes. And also, you know, more importantly, I think people forget it also makes up some of their motivations. When you look at the Russian claims in Ukraine, Russian claims in the Baltic states. Why? You know why the Soviets occupied them in 1940 I mean, there's a lot that goes that goes far beyond just our recent history.

Greg Leighton  47:32

Yeah, yeah, of course. And, I mean, I guess, just to add one more point, you know, I think if I could go back and answer, or add to my answer, yeah, please. This, this sort of situation. Now, I think if I could implore people to take one thing away, is that history matters and narratives matter, and it's important to try and encounter as many as you can. Of course, like from my perspective, I'm dealing with with problems or people that live centuries ago, but I think an understanding of those narratives in a broader context and from different perspectives can give you a more well rounded view of the situations in the present. So pay attention to narratives. Try to take in as many as you can and and you know, weigh them against one another, and try to be more historical. Try to be more like historian, yeah. Well, I

Tad Schnaufer  48:24

can definitely support that. I enjoy history and see the importance of it. Well, Greg, thank you so much for joining us, calling in from Poland and spending some time.

Greg Leighton  48:34

Thank you very much. Tad, it's great to be here.

Jim Cardoso  48:40

Special thanks to our guest today, Gregory Layton, author of ideology and holy landscape in the Baltic crusades, and Dr Tad schnaufer, GNSI strategy and research manager next week on the podcast, Tad will sit on the other side of the microphone along with GNSI Research Fellow Dr Guido Rossi, to discuss their latest collaboration, an article published in the Journal of strategic security, which posits that the war in Ukraine demonstrates that limited, piecemeal mobilization driven by domestic constraints and miscalculation has prolonged the conflict, underscoring that large scale warfare still demands early full national commitment to achieve decisive outcomes. If you don't want to miss that episode or any other episode, be sure to like and subscribe to at the boundary on your favorite podcast platform. We thank you for sharing some time with us today. You can find GNSI on YouTube, LinkedIn and x be sure to follow like and subscribe. Tell your friends and colleagues as well, and you should definitely check out our monthly newsletter. All this is on our website, usf.edu/gnsi,

Jim Cardoso  49:57

that's going to wrap up this episode of at the boundary. Each new episode will feature global and national security issues we found to be insightful, intriguing, maybe controversial, but overall, just worth talking about. I'm Jim Cardoso, and we'll see you at the boundary. You.